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Enciclopedia discusión:Por qué estamos aquí y no en es.wikipedia.org

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Creo que habría que mover el contenido de esta y algunas otras páginas a una especie de historia de esta enciclopedia o algo así. ¿Alguien se anima?. Juanan, Jueves, 10 Octubre 2002

Por favor, usted traduce ésta página en íngles para nosotros. Grácias.


(Please translate this page into English for us. Thank you.)


-- Chuck Smith


Deberiamos añadir también todo el historial de mails con la gente de Wikipedia, para que la gente conozca la gente detrás de Wikipedia. En fin, deberiamos documentar esto mucho mas, para quitar a aquel que lo lea las ganas de acercarse de nuevo a Wikipedia con intencion de aportar algo...


--Tuxisuau


Creo que el ideario deberia consensuarse un poco. En particular creo que lospenultimo y antepenultimo no corresponden (independientemente de que este de acuerdo) al proyecto, que tal como yo lo veo debe ser de caracter cultural (acade

mico?) y sin connotaciones politicas/ideologicas.


-- Gonis





Totalmente de acuerdo. Su inclusión se debe a la prepotencia demostrada por quienes dicen que las opiniones de los demás son reprochables y tontas: «regrettable» y «silly». Esa actitud de persona con permiso para opinar sobre los demás es la que me llevó a plantear que nadie es más que otro.


No obstante, entiendo contigo que podemos centrarnos en el tema cultural y académico, así como admitir cuantas modificaciones y consensos sean necesarios sobre el ideario. Javier de la Cueva

Después de esta separación, dolorosa como todas, me gustaría que las aguas volvieran a sus cauces habituales de colaboración y concordia. Me encantaría quedar en buenos terminos con toda la gente de wikipedia, no hacerles boicot de ningún tipo, y aunque discrepemos en algunas cosas seguir siendo con ellos, y con todas las wikipedias, un proyecto hermano. Para empezar por algo me encantaría que alguien tradujera "por qué estamos aquí..." como piden más arriba, por desgracia mi inglés no me permite hacerlo. juanan


Estoy de acuerdo con juanan, creo que es hora de mostrar por qué estamos aquí y dejar un poco a un lado la polémica, que sólo nos haría invertir tiempo en nada, porque ya estamos en un proyecto alternativo.
Es, al menos, lo que yo quiero hacer, dedicarme un poco a la enciclopedia. Tampoco quiero dar el gusto a nadie de preocuparme más por ellos que lo que ellos se preocupan por mí.


No obstante, sigo fiel a la idea que nos trajo aquí y no voy a "bajar la guardia", voy a trabajar en pro de este proyecto, lo que no implica que cada vez que es.wikipedia copie un artículo nuestro, no se añada a pié de página:


El contenido de este artículo, publicado originalmente en nuestra enciclopedia, ha sido copiado por la Wikipedia de Bomis Inc y añadido a sus páginas según los términos de la licencia GNU/FDL. No obstante, las mejoras y revisiones que introduzca su autor en un futuro, serán hechas sobre estas páginas.


Lo anterior no va en contra de la licencia, así como tampoco pedir un link-back, que no lo vamos a pedir (supongo), porque sería rizar el rizo (Wikipedia preguntó a Stallman si un link-back está dentro de los términos de la licencia y respondió que sí. No obstante, fue considerado impopular por la mayoría).


Se trataría de dar a conocer dónde fue publicado el artículo por vez primera, y en cierto modo el usuario tiene derecho a saberlo.


Son sólo ideas, aquí decidimos todos.


Sobre lo de ser combativos con es.wikipedia, No creo que sea el momento de enervar los ánimos, sino de calmarlos. Sé que algunos, entre los que me incluyo, podríamos estar molestos ante la provocación de Bomis Inc de sacar nuestros comentarios fuera de contexto y hacer sobre ellos calificaciones despectivas, irónicas y prepotentes. Sé que a otros les ha molestado otros "detalles" de estos señores.



Pero no hace falta empujar a es.wikipedia a ningún sitio, se va a

caer sola...



Wikipedia se va a caer sola...



...porque no sirve a la comunidad, se sirve de ella, que es muy

distinto.




...porque tiene editores en la sombra que impiden la publicación de páginas y practican el borrado permanente de las mismas.



...porque cualquier voz crítica, que al igual que la nuestra ha

habido varias (bastantes) en la wikipedia en inglés, es hostigada y

acallada mediante el borrado de páginas hasta que el colaborador abandona.



...porque no existe un verdadero proyecto de wikipedia internacional, dando por sentado que lo mejor que puede hacer un

colaborador de una wikipedia internacional es limitarse a traducir

los "magníficos" artículos publicados en la versión en inglés.



...porque Larry Sanger no es un buen gestor, y lo ha demostrado con el fracaso de Nupedia y su imposibilidad para dialogar.



...porque Jimmy Wales es un buen empresario, lo ha demostrado en el éxito de su portal Bomis Inc en cuanto a tráfico de usuarios, y como buen empresario no va a perder los 250.000 dólares invertidos en Wikipedia y en Nupedia.



...porque los colaboradores que levantamos es.Wikipedia después de

muchos meses casi inactiva hemos sido nosotros, los que estamos en este nuevo proyecto. Quintuplicamos el número de artículos preexistentes en es.wikipedia.



...porque nosotros estamos abiertos a sugerencias y a cambios, pues entendemos el proyecto como dinámico, mientras en wikipedia hay que seguir los lineamientos dictados para ser "un buen colaborador".



...porque la inclusión de publicidad en las wikipedias menores (las internacionales), que aún están en proceso de formación, va a ser

un factor decisivo para el fracaso de las mismas. No se puede apelar a la conciencia humanitaria y desinteresada de los colaboradores para beneficiarse directamente de ello y a la vez crear más puestos de trabajo de editores-censores en Bomis Inc con el dinero recaudado.



... porque, para terminar, Bomis Inc es una empresa mercantil con

sede en los Estados Unidos, a la vez que es una punto.com y a la vez que quiere enmascararse bajo la fachada de Fundación Nupedia, para evitar las voces críticas que han surgido además de la nuestra. Y sea cual fuere la forma que adopte, todo lo anterior seguirá siendo igual de válido.



Por esto, y más cosas que se quedan en el tintero, no hace falta

darles ningún empujón. Que los usuarios decidan con el tiempo, que es el único que acaba dando la razón.--Edgar



Yo leo muchos falsos en ésta página, pero quiero que Larry Sanger o Jimmy Wales contestarle. Ellos ne pueden porque ellos no hablan español.  :-( Por favor, ustedes leyen la Declaración De Larry Sanger Acerca De La Bifurcación De La Enciclopedia Wiki En Castellano.



I read many false things in this page, but I want Larry Sanger or Jimmy Wales to answer them. They can't because they don't speak Spanish.  :-( --Chuck Smith

I am not only unable to answer in Spanish, I am unable to read in Spanish. I have been doing what I can to get people to translate for me, and using machine

translators... but I am still not getting the full picture.


What I can read, disturbs me. I fear that people are operating here under some completely false information.


One tidbit here that I was able to understand, is the claim that I must make back $250,000 from Wikipedia. This is entirely false. Not only is it false, the person who wrote it knows that it is false. The only way he knows about this exact figure was that I mentioned it to him to demonstrate my personal level of commitment to the project. I do not own a home, I rent, and the reason is exactly that I have spent all my money on this project. Furthermore, I do not regret it and I do not expect to make any money in return, ever.


Let me repeat that. I do not expect to make any money from Wikipedia, ever. That is not my purpose. My purpose is to change the world, especially by generating a true

international community of goodwill and reason, working towards a global goal of freedom of information for all people.


I hope that contributors to this website will understand the following things:


1. You are all welcome back to es.wikipedia.com with welcome arms. It would be a shame to break away from the international community because you have been told things that are false. It is my belief, and I will continue to push for this for as long as it takes, that all work should stop now on this website, before the fork grows large. As of right now, there will be little difficulty in re-integrating. So please stop working here now, and return to the main project.


2. We are fully committed to wikipedia as a non-profit enterprise. Anyone who says otherwise is simply wrong. If possible, I would like to ask a prominent Spanish wikipedia contributor to serve on the board of directors of the nonprofit foundation. We already have a firm commitment from Richard Stallman to serve, and I intend to make the board as representative of the entire Wikipedia community as possible.


3. There are not now, and never have been, any plans for advertisments on the es.wikipedia.com.


4. We have a large and growing staff of programmers working to improve the international capabilities of wikipedia software, and this software will continue to get better over time. We desperately want and need help from active wikipedians from all languages and cultures to assist with this. (People from many parts of the world are working on it now! And so can you!)


5. If some people have personal difficulties with Larry Sanger, this can be easily resolved. I will simply ask Larry to not have anything to do with es.wikipedia.com, and

that will be the end of that. I am sure he will respect my decision because we are in total agreement that the most important thing is the project, not individual egos.


6. If some people have personal difficulties with me, then please express them to me in private email, and I can assure you that I will do whatever it takes to heal

any past wounds.


7. I am completely and totally open to all communication from all people. There is no problem that we can not resolve with honesty and real heartfelt communication.


Based on all of this, I can say that there is no reason for this fork to continue. I can only invite anyone who has questions to email me -- if you are reading this in translation to Spanish, then even so, do not hesitate to write to me, even in Spanish, and I will find someone to help me understand your message.


--Jimbo Wales



Well, I must say, independently of wether I agree or not with your sentences, that this is the most polite answer I have seen from the wikipedia responsibles... That is a step in the right direction... The only problem is that it might be to late, and that we see nothing but words (sometimes contradictory). No facts (I see no non-profit fundation), nor a clear and "official" statement of publicity/sponsorship/whatever_you_call_it, etc...


-- Gonis


Thank you. I have some questions for you. I want to satisfy you in every way.


1. Can you email me at jwales@bomis.com so that we may discuss your personal concerns in more depth?


2. What do you still see as contradictory? I believe that the situation is very simple and that there are no contradictions. Any remaining confusions I will gladly

address.


3. What form of "official" statement would satisfy you? I can tell you that there is nothing unofficial about any of this. Everything I have said here is absolutely

an official statement of policy. I am happy to supply more details upon request, but I need specific questions because I do not know what is sought!


My primary concern is that we reunite the world community in peace and harmony. I see no need for this action, particularly since I stand ready to address any and

all concerns to the full satisfaction of all members of the community.


--Jimbo Wales





I agree with Gonis. And this is going to be my last wasting time writing about conflicts:


  • Dear Chuck, how can you dare to use «false»? Have you ever considered the possibility of the existence of politeness in your words? Do you know what is emotional intelligence? Humbly I would recommend you not to say that people lie, nor say «false» things. Freedom is based upon different opinions. And nobody is entitled to say that other people write false things.


  • Dear Chuck, Larry and Jimbo. I have carefully read Larry's statement, and it made me think about several items:


  1. It remembered me all statements we have read in Spain from our «Salvation Patriots» during XIX and XX Centuries, mainly until 1978 when «we, the people» filed peacefuly for a modelic democracy. So we are tired about those kind of statements (which we can see nowadays in tv where always someone appears saving the X, Y or Z Nation).
  1. The usage of expressions as «that is very regrettable and, moreover, totally unnecessary», «These people, however, seem not to have all the facts», «this recent fork of the Spanish Wikipedia is completely unsupportable» do not contribute to tolerance nor to politeness.
  1. The usage of the pronoun «I» should also be considered. All the statement is full with «I think», «I am», «I urge», «I understand», «I would call», etc.


  • Chuck, Larry and Jimbo: The fork has deeper reasons and not only ads' ones. Those reasons are called tolerance, freedom and non-egocentric personalities: ads were just a trigger. Nobody of us made that clear, it is true, but it is because we try not to behave in the way we regret: we regret criticizing people, so instead of doing the same, we just moved away.


  • The above mentioned statement is just one of the reasons we do not feel confortable at your house, as we do not like nor those expressions nor the attitude. Personally I am too old to receive --or to have to read-- qualifications of false, regrettable, unnecessary, unsopportable, etc.


  • Our response has not been confrontation nor personal criticism. It has been a choice of freedom and respect. You can rule your web as you like and if we do not agree with your ideas, we are not going to fight against you (nor even use your style), we are going to exercise our freedom. We are not entitled to change your world, so we create ours.


  • So please, in the name of freedom and tolerance, leave us alone and let us work as intellectuals do: with respect, courtesy and peacefully.


  • Please, Jimbo, don't think we are breaking away from the international community: we also are the international community, and a very important part of it.


And please forgive me because I am not going to waste any time in continuing this debate. I am just going to write articles here which, I hope, you copy in your wikipedia, where I do not have the sensation to be at home. Thank you for your time.


Javier de la Cueva


Estoy de acuerdo con Gonis y esta es la última vez que perderé el tiempo escribiendo sobre conflictos.


  • Estimado Chuck, ¿cómo se atreve a usar «falso»?¿Alguna vez se ha planteado la posiiblidad de la existencia de educación en sus palabras?¿Sabe usted lo que es la inteligencia emocional? Le recomendaría humildemente que no dijera que la gente miente ni que dice cosas «falsas». La libertad se fundamenta en la diferencia de opiniones. Y nadie tiene el derecho de decir que otra gente escribe cosas falsas.


  • Estimados Chuck, Larry y Jimbo. He leido muy atentamente la declaración de Larry, y me ha hecho reflexionar acerca de diversas cuestiones:


  1. Me recordó todas las proclamas que hemos leido en España de «salvadores de la patria» durante los siglos XIX y XX Centuries, hasta 1978 cuando nosotros el pueblo nos encaminamos pacíficamente hacia una democracia modélica (NT «we, the people», nosotros, el pueblo, es el inicio de la Constitución de los EEUU). Así que estamos cansados de ese tipo de proclamas (que podemos ver hoy en dia en la tv donde siempre aparece alguien salvando a la nación X, Y o Z).
  1. El uso de expresiones como «eso es muy rechazable y, además, totalmente innecesario», «Esta gente, de todas maneras, parece que no conocen todos los hechos», «la reciente secesión de la Spanish Wikipedia no puede apoyarse bajo ningún concepto» no contribuye a la tolerancia ni a la educación.
  1. El uso del pronombre «Yo» también debe ser tomado en cuenta. Toda la declaración está llena de «Yo pienso», «Yo soy», «Yo requiero», «Yo entiendo», «Yo llamaría», etc.


  • Chuck, Larry y Jimbo: la secesión tiene motivos más profundos y no sólo los de la publicidad. Esos motivos se llaman tolerancia, libertad y personalidades no egocéntricas: la publicidad simplemente fue la gota que colmó el vaso. Nadie de nosotros lo expresó claramente, es verdad, pero es que intentamos no comportarnos de una manera que rechazamos: rechazamos criticar a los demás, así que en lugar de comportarnos así, simplemente nos fuimos.


  • La declaración mencionada anteriormente es una de las razones por las que no nos sentimos a gusto en su casa, ya que no nos gustan ni las expresiones ni la actitud. Personalmente soy demasiado mayor para recibir --o tener que leer-- calificativos tales como falso, rechazable, innecesario, no apoyable, etc.


  • Nuestra respuesta no ha sido la confrontación ni la crítica personal. Ha sido un ejercicio de libertad y respeto. Ustedes pueden dirigir su web como quieran y si no estamos de acuerdo con sus ideas, no vamos a luchar contra ustedes (ni tampoco usar su estilo), sino que vamos a ejercer nuestra libertad. No tenemos derecho a cambiar su mundo, así que creamos el nuestro.


  • Así pues, por favor y en nombre de la libertad y de la tolerancia, déjennos en paz y permítannos trabajar como lo hacen los intelectuales:con respeto, cortesía y pacíficamente.


  • Por favor, Jimbo, no piense que estamos abandonando la comunidad internacional: nosotros somos también la comunidad internacional, y una parte muy importante de ella.


Y por favor, perdónenme porque no voy a perder el tiempo continuando este debate. Sólo me voy a dedicar a escribir artículos aquí, que, espero, ustedes copien en su wikipedia, donde no tengo la sensación de estar como en casa. Gracias por su tiempo.


Javier de la Cueva


Javier,


I, too, seek to end any argument. But I do not seek an end to discussions in the furtherance of our mutual goals. I believe that you have several stated and unstated

grievances, and I seek to address absolutely all of them to your complete satisfaction.


The reason I have stated that there are false beliefs is that there clearly are, or were. People were saying that we were going to do things that we were not going to do.

At least some of those people knew better, because they had talked to me in private email and I had told them. Still, they choose to tell you things that were not true. I

think that's a terrible thing.


You mention: tolerance, freedom, and non-egocentric personalities. I would like to address all of those. On the Spanish Wikipedia, you have all of those things. There is no censorship. There is no intolerance. There is no lack of freedom. If you have trouble with any specific personality, you can write to me and tell me, and I will try to solve the problem. No one is better suited to manage the community than the members of the community itself. And that is officially the policy of Wikipedia, and always will be.


What specific grievances do you have? What additional freedoms would you like to be granted?


You are absolutely right to say that if you do not agree with my ideas, you should leave. But which of my ideas do you disagree with? Because I would rather change my ideas than destroy the unity of the Wikipedia project. But, I believe that you and I have no disagreements about ideas -- I think that you have been lied to about this. I know those are strong words, but I don't know any other way to say it.


I believe with absolute firmness in the spirit of open co-operation, with the spirit of tolerant respect for other, with the spirit of non-ego-centric writing in the wikipedia. I am willing to commit to whatever it takes, within the bounds of these values, to heal the wounds that have been created.


You say "please do not think we are breaking away from the International community" -- but, you are! As the software for wikipedia improves and grows, the level of

interlinking between various languages will increase. As the es.wikipedia.com will continue to exist, whether you rejoin or not, it will grow indpendently of this project, and they will begin to differ in many ways which are not helpful to any of us. Your project will become totally isolated from the world community of free encyclopedists, and for what reason?


I see no reason, because none of the complaints I have seen are such that we can not resolve them respectfully and in harmony. Anything you wish to do, I will do. There is no reason for a break, because you the es.wikipedia.com community has total support and freedom from our staff of volunteer programmers, etc. When you say "we are not entitled to change your world" you are operating under a false impression: you are fully entitled to change my world, and anything you ask will be granted, so long as it is consistent with the GNU FDL and the spirit of the Wikipedia.


Please reconsider, and I urge you to write to me directly at jwales@bomis.com to discuss this further. This is particularly true if you have additional, personal reasons,

for example, dislike of particular persons, that you are not comfortable discussing publicly.


--Jimbo Wales



Me ha escrito Wales de Bomis. Copio el contenido del correo porque creo que es importante. Creo que todos deben tener conocimiento de lo siguiente para poder decidir, porque, cuando escriben de la situación actual en las listas se siguen refiriendo a mí como un manipulador de información y un instigador, como si ninguno de vosotros supiera inglés y yo hubiera tergiversado la información de las listas de correo y de wikipedia.com.



El correo es, básicamente, una respuesta, por escrito, a lo que se pidió a Bomis Inc, donde se indica que no va a haber publicidad, que un español será miembro de la junta de la Fundación Nupedia, que no se espera sacar beneficios de Wikipedia, que Wikipedia.es tendrá su propia lista de correo para decidir sus políticas de actuación y que no se interferirá en absoluto desde Bomis a las decisiones tomadas en es.Wikipedia.



Incluso queda abierta la posibilidad de aportar ideas, por ejemplo, si alguien no quiere trabajar en una puntocom, se puede pedir un mirror en es.wikipedia.org (que también pertenece a Bomis) y trabajar en una .org, se puede acceder al código fuente y cambiar las propiedades, si alguien es reticente con la puesta en marcha de la Fundación que gestionará Wikipedia y Nupedia, puede decidir esperar a que la misma sea una realidad, etc.



En suma, creo que Bomis está intentando ofrecer todo lo que tiene a su alcance en relación a lo que se pidió en un principio, excepto lo que obviamente está fuera de su alcance, como ser una empresa norteamericana y cosas así. Vosotros decidís.



Correo original: (está íntegro, y no he respondido al mismo)




Original Message


From: "Jimmy Wales" <jwales@bomis.com>


To: "Edgar Enyedy" <edgar@ya.com>


Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 10:35 AM


Subject: Re: [Intlwiki-l] Ads and the future of Wikipedias/2




I respond to this one again, because I really want to reach out to you to attempt to heal the community.



I want to restate the facts so that we are completely clear on how far I can go to assist you.



1. There are no plans to place advertising on es.wikipedia.com.



2. Upon the formation of the nonprofit organization, I seek to have representation from every active wikipedia on a board of directors who will decide all policies of the wikipedia. This will be a very formal position of real authority. Would you be willing to serve?



3. I do not intend to profit from wikipedia. You wrote:



"...porque Jimmy Wales es un buen empresario, lo ha demostrado en el éxito de su portal Bomis Inc en cuanto a tráfico de usuarios, y como buen empresario no va a perder los 250.000 dólares invertidos en Wikipedia y en Nupedia."



Can you translate that for me? For I believe it is not only not true,it is something that I have already explained to you. In particular,the money that I have spent on wikipedia and nupedia is considered by me to be a complete and total gift to the world, a gift for which I expect and ask no repayment. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar and not to be respected or trusted.



4.NEW: I seek the formation of a committee of users of the

es.wikipedia.com, put together on your own mailing list, and entrusted with the complete operation of the Spanish wikipedia in any manner consistent with our overall goals, i.e. with the GNU FDL and NPOV.



5.NEW: I am willing to ban both Larry Sanger and myself from any participation in that committee, as well as to ban us from any

participation in the site, if that will make you happy.




In short, Edgar, I am willing to do absolutely anything to heal this wound, and only hatred could cause someone to not accept this offer.


But is hatred of other cultures the proper basis for a peaceful andbenevolent knowledge project of this type?



If there is ANY other idea that you have, anything at all, which would make you want to persuade others to rejoin you, then please make that known to me now.



--Jimbo



Existe un segundo correo, enviado muy poco después que el anterior, que añade:



One more thing...



For unrelated reasons, Larry Sanger is fully resigning from the projects. I just found out this morning.



Will that help with reconciliation?



To whatever extent animosity was created by his words in the past, hopefully this will help. If you view him as a problem, well, he is gone.



Can we reunite the es.wikipedia.com community now? What other conditions would you place on your own return?



--Jimbo



Pues lo dicho, vosotros decidís. --Edgar



Bueno, yo, personalmente, pienso, y ya lo dije mas arriba, que todo esto es un movimiento en la buena direccion. Creo que no es positivo, ni para ellos, ni, sobre todo, para nosotros, tener dos proyectos tan parecidos en finalidad. Estoy de acuerdo en que tan importante como la finalidad del proyecto (una enciclopedia) son los motivos y los ideales por los cuales pretendemos regirnos. Creo que las palabras de Jimbo son sinceras y deben considerarse. Es cierto, que es una lastima, que haya tardado tanto en llegar hasta este punto, y que la consecuencia haya sido el fork (me da igual como lo traduzcamos). Creo que deberiamos reconsiderar nuestra posicion y nuestros movimientos en el futuro, porque hasta que no tengamos todo esto claro no habra forma de trabajar a gusto sin estar preocupados de en que acabara todo, si wikipedia tendra mas colaboradores, si la gente se dara cuenta de que existe esta alternativa, etc... El primer movimiento, a mi entender, seria seguir donde estamos hasta que exista de manera real la fundacion wikipedia o nupedia o como se llame, sin animo de lucro, etc (tendremos nuestras exigencias), en la cual deberian estar representadas en igualdad de condiciones todas las wikipedias. Si no entiendo mal, es posible redirigir es.wikipedia.org[com] al sitio actual de la universidad de Sevilla, que tan generosamente nos ha cedido el espacio, la CPU, y por lo que he leido hoy, hasta ha puesto mas memoria. Este seria el segundo paso, que garantizaria no solo en palabras, sino en hechos, el control de la wikipedia en castellano por parte de la comunidad hispana. En ese momento se habria producido la tan ansiada reunificacion...


En fin, estas son algunas ideas que se me han ocurrido sobre la marcha,... son totalmente personales y, por supuesto, habria que elaborarlas un poco (bastante) mas.


Yo creo que lo mejor sería quedarnos aquí, y esperar a la asociación sin ánimo de lucro.

Como señal de buena voluntad podríamos ir copiando nuestro trabajo también en es.wikipedia.com; para que el tal Jimbo vea que no vamos de mal rollo.

(es simplemente añadir lo que hagamos aquí allí...).

Lo que estamos haciendo es un trabajo a muy largo plazo... es el trabajo de una vida... en realidad de muchas vidas... y merece empezar con buen pie

-)


atlante



¿Por qué yo ataco la censura en Wikipedia.es?


En pocas líneas: porque no creo que un proyecto basado en la comunidad y para la comunidad, con la premisa de "revisión por iguales" necesite empleados a tiempo completo que censuren, borren páginas y establezcan políticas de actuación, como lo hizo L. Sanger en cuanto a las páginas de definiciones cortas, por poner un ejemplo.


Porque sinceramente creo que si la propia comunidad no sabe imponer sus mecanismos de revisión por iguales el proyecto, tal y como está concebido, estaría destinado al fracaso. Un proyecto moderado sería un proyecto completamente distinto.


Porque en las páginas de wikipedia.es acaban de borrar todos vuestros comentarios sobre la inconformidad con las políticas de Bomis, quedando otra vez la lista de wikipedistas tal y como estaba cuando colaborábamos allí. Es decir, allí no ha pasado nada.


Eso se llama censura, venga de Larry, Astronomo o de cualquier otro colaborador. Y por ello coloqué en su momento las páginas censuradas, para demostrar que existe y no lanzar acusaciones que no pueda soportar.--Edgar



Edgar, estoy de acuerdo contigo respecto a lo de la censura.... y por ello he pedido explicaciones a Jimbo. No me ha gustado tampoco y asi se lo he dicho. Creo que es conveniente que este punto se aclare y que todo lo de Jimbo no quede en palabras bonitas. Y tambien creo que nosotros debemos mantener la calma y pasar de provocaciones, poner nuestras condiciones claritas para que no haya interpretaciones alternativas posibles. Me gusta este proyecto, y me gusta la idea de que este integrado en un movimiento mas general que el meramente hispano, aunque tambien me gustaria tener un grado de independencia, de identidad propia, etc... Quizas alguien, mas objetivo, y con ganas de que le caigan muchas criticas (educadas, espero y deseo) se tome la molestia de recoger nuestras condiciones para una "reintegracion" (quizas haya tambien que definir en que va a consistir esto) consensuadas entre todos y no impuestas por ninguno de nosotros (es decir, alejados del estilo que hemos visto hasta ahora en wikipedia). En fin, que tratemos de no hacerles el juego facil que nos ha hecho Larry hasta ahora a nosotros...


-- Gonis


---

Es muy claro todo. Fue eliminado el comentario en la lista de wikipedistas donde a un lado

de mi nombre expresaba mi intensión de no continuar hasta no conocer el futuro de la wikipedia

en español. Sencillamente fue eliminado mi comentario. Finalmente no fui yo dueño de mis

propias palabras en ese lugar.


-- Cuauhtémoc Pacheco Díaz





Acabo de contestar el correo de J. Wales proponiendo lo que sería un principio de acercamiento de posturas, en pro de la integración. Esto no quiere decir que yo tome decisión alguna en nombre de vosotros, sólo le he hecho llegar lo recogido aquí, sobre un posible mirror.org y la copia simultánea de artículos, además de que las cosas podrían cambiar en el momento que una Fundación sin fines de lucro se haga cargo de gestionar ambos proyectos (Wikipedia y Nupedia). Pero repito, yo no he tomado ninguna decisión en nombre de nadie, sólo le he hecho llegar las propuestas.



El correo:




Please don´t misunderstand my words...



> I respond to this one again, because I really want to reach out

to you to attempt to heal the community.



What community? As far as I know, I´ll tell you what is waiting

for us at es.wikipedia.com:


Somebody nicknamed AstroNomo.


Somebody nicknamed Zurt.


Something under .. or -.-.(derek at kapcoweb dot com)



About the first one, Astronomo: he has been influenced by Larry´s

policies, he believes himself to be the Spanish Wikipedia founder (as he states on his personal page) and he dos *NOT* contribute

with articles, his role is just to watch, discuss and just to

appear from time to time to impose himself.


When I work on articles, I think on peer revision, ans it´s a

democratic system, if you want to discuss, contribute first!.


Your contribution is your vote!


I dont´t want to argue with this guy anymore, a sort of clone of what I don´t want to be discussing with. He lives in the USA and he should be contributing on www.wikipedia.com and stay away from circumstances he doesn´t really know at all.



Zurt: no comments.



-.- or .. : (derek at kapcoweb dot com): this guy has just erased

all wikipedians comments on Spanish wikipedians page. Just another

censorship job. Well done!. That´s one more reason to stay away

from the "community" your policies created.




In my opinion, you can´t erase what people have written in freedom. Nobody has the judgement enough to state what´s right or

wrong about the free speech of people. Maybe a peer review, just

that. And I´m really worried about what this guy has done. Is that

the wikipedian spirit you have encouraged from Wikipedia.com?





> I want to restate the facts so that we are completely clear on

how far I can go to assist you.



> 1. There are no plans to place advertising on es.wikipedia.com.




Nice to hear that. How long?


Just Till we get 15,000 articles or so?


or this decission will be taken inside Nupedia nonprofit

organization with people like Zurt, AstroNomo (AstroNomer) or -.-

(..)(derek at kapcoweb dot com) as Spanish wikipedians authorities

or representation?



No, thanks. That would be a joke...





2.Upon the formation of the nonprofit organization, I seek to

have representation from every active wikipedia on a board of

directors who will decide all policies of the wikipedia. This

will be a very formalposition of real authority. Would you be

willing to serve?



I *DO* *REALLY* *KNOW* and I´m *AWARE* that you won´t be glad to

see me there. I´ve been blacklisted just as TAW.



I still can tell promises from facts when I read the first.



3.I do not intend to profit from wikipedia. You wrote:



> "...porque Jimmy Wales es un buen empresario, lo ha demostrado

en el éxito de su portal Bomis Inc en cuanto a tráfico de usuarios, y como buen empresario no va a perder los 250.000 dólares invertidos en Wikipedia y en Nupedia."



> Can you translate that for me? For I believe it is not only not true,it is something that I have already explained to you. In

particular,the money that I have spent on wikipedia and nupedia is

considered by me to be a complete and total gift to the world, a

gift for which I expect and ask no repayment. Anyone who says

otherwise is a liar and not to be respected or trusted.



Will you stop calling me a liar?


I made my statement on my personal page, and almost all

wikipedians have read the original material in english. I can´t lie about things they have read and thought about. I have not

imposed my POV, I have NOT told any lie, I just made my statement

and erased myself from Wikipedia.



If you still think I´m a troll, Why do you e-mail me?



They reached their own conclussions, they decided themselves, they can read english and understand what they´re reading.


And you have repeated that everytime you can, as on the mail-list

and your statements. Will you stop that?




Can you translate that for me?


Yes.




I just said, While it has been found out that Sanger isn´t the

most suitable person to carry on these projects (see Nupedia´s

policies, Nupedia breakdown and Wikipedia censorship job), whereas

he is not the best suitable manager, Wales is. This fact is

supported by Bomis success (on clicks ans traffic) and he won´t let pass away the opportunity to recup the initial amount payed in

advance for these projects to start.



And If I ever see a donation of such amount to the nonprofit

organization, that day I´ll be sure and convinced about that.


As you said, you are not a wealthy man, so even you show us a real proof about that donation, it´s hard to believe it´s true. I´m not calling you a liar, I´m suggesting there may be some alternate

ways to recup the amount (traffic throught your servers to wikipedia or whatever it be, I don´t know, and I don´t care at all).I´m just trying to say it´s hard to believe (the fact: your surname is Wales, If your surname were Rockefeller it would be easier to believe ;-))




> 4. NEW: I seek the formation of a committee of users of the

es.wikipedia.com, put together on your own mailing list, and

entrusted with the complete operation of the Spanish wikipedia in

any manner consistent with our overall goals, i.e. with the GNU FDL and NPOV.




And I repeat the above, as you don´t want to see a liar and a

troll like me in any committee or nonprofit org., I don´t want to

see the sanger-local-copies who are living right now on es.Wikipedia.




> 5. NEW: I am willing to ban both Larry Sanger and myself from

any participation in that committee, as well as to ban us from any

participation in the site, if that will make you happy.




I´m sure that will make happy not only wikipedians but also ex-wikipedians.





> In short, Edgar, I am willing to do absolutely anything to heal

this wound, and only hatred could cause someone to not accept this

offer.


> But is hatred of other cultures the proper basis for a peaceful

and benevolent knowledge project of this type?



We may start copying all our articles to es.wikipedia.com as we

write them on our 'pedia. Just to develop both of them. But we are

not moving yet.




> If there is ANY other idea that you have, anything at all, which would make you want to persuade others to rejoin you, then please make that known to me now.




Why don´t you mirror es.wikipedia.com on es.wikipedia.ORG (this

domain belongs to you, too). I´m talking about mirroring, not moving.



We will start immediatly to copy each and every one of our

articles to the ORG domain...



-You can transfer (or mirror) the whole content from the org domain to es.wikipedia.com. I suppose they will start working on

the dot.org. This kind of domain means no problem at all.



As soon as the non-profit organization is done, we´ll close the


University encyclopedia.



May we access the source code and change it like we´ve done? I

mean, fonts, and minor things like that.



We´ve set an admin password which has been spread over the

contributors, and they have filtered all vandalized an non-sense

pages, as well as copyrighted articles.our contents are now far better than tne Wikipedia itself.



Will we be allowed to perform this kind of tasks?




And finally, I also want to finish this break, and I´m also willing to heal this wound, but:



1-In my opinion, you shouldn´t make jokes or laught at our comments, I mean:


"this next is very funny, my favourite one:..."



You´re getting nowhere that way.



2-Please, don´t keep on telling that liars and trolls led to this

situation, that idea only does harm, just because it shows you´ve

not understood nothing about all this.



3-Don´t become a liar yourself offering me a representation on a

board of directors. I know you´d be glad if I left all of this

("wikipedians should be overly combative"). When I say that TAW

and I are blacklisted, that´s what I mean. You´d prefer AstroNomo

and wikipedians like him.




4-I guess the steps above would help for us to re-join the

original project, however, if a wikipedian deletes our words from

the wikipedia, like .., or -.- (derek at kapcoweb dot com) has

just done, we (me and you) will never reach that, to put the

pieces together again.



Edgar.

Vamos a centrarnos un poco. A los señores de Bomis no les interesa la cultura, puesto que si les interesara, aceptarían de buen grado que la sección española se hubiera trasladado a un servidor universitario, desde donde se tiene más carisma que desde Bomis. Eso sí que es un respaldo para su proyecto, que la sección española se aloja en un servidor de una Universidad. Pero no, no lo quieren, tenemos que estar bajo SU control.


No me gustan esas personas, no me gusta que me digan que les puedo enviar un correo privado (ver la respuesta de Wales más arriba) Si yo escribo algo o tengo algo que decir, lo expongo en público, como estoy haciendo ahora o tal y como teneis mi respuesta a Astrónomo en el foro sobre los cotilleos. Pero que no me digan que envíe correos a espaldas de nadie.


No me gusta Wales, no me gusta Sanger. No me parecen serios ni intelectualmente honestos. Y creo que el ambiente en la wikipedia huele a podrido (algo huele a podrido en Dinamarca ¿os suena?) Si realmente estuvieran interesados en el proyecto, en lugar de querernos reclutar en su casa, permitirían nuestra libertad, madurez e independencia y nos dejarían de pegar la plasta.


Estimados colegas, no seais ingenuos. Esto es como el marido maltratador que le dice a su mujer que la quiere. Ahora que se ha producido la secesión es cuando dicen que entregan tal y cual. Pero bueno, ¿qué es esto de estar negociando? ¿Negociando con un tío que nos dice que no nos apartemos de la comunidad internacional?¿Pero quién se ha creído que es?¿Con qué derecho decide quién es la comunidad internacional? Lo lamento mucho pero no me gusta ese modelo de pensamiento único.


Lo siento, pero no escribo ni una palabra más en wikipedia.


Otra cosa, el régimen fiscal de las fundaciones norteamericanas implica deducciones fiscales de un calibre importante, según qué Estados sirven para ganar dinero a través del ahorro de impuestos.


Otra cosa más. No hablaré de cosas personales, pero os puedo decir que el hecho de estar en un Consejo de Administración es una zanahoria para idiotas. Os aseguro que es de vanidosos que se creen importantes.


Por último, repetir que a estos señores sólo les interesa una wikipedia bajo sus manos, no una wikipedia libre que fuera una verdadera comunidad, estableciendo lazos entre la universidad de sevilla, una empresa norteamericana, representantes alemanes, otros franceses, ingleses, etc. No nos olvidemos que estamos asistiendo al uso de la tecnología como mecanismo de control.


Devolvámosles la oferta: Que es.wikipedia sea un mirror de la Universidad de Sevilla. A ver si tienen talante democrático. Yo ya me sé su respuesta.


Tenemos ante nosotros dos posibilidades: Generar una enciclopedia en castellano, con todos los enlaces que se quieran poner entre wikipedia y esta enciclopedia, con todos los enlaces que ellos quieran poner a esta y liderar el proyecto en castellano en régimen de igualdad con el proyecto en inglés o ser unos más de las ¡ahora wikipedia es internacional! (que por cierto, manda huevos de expresión).


Reitero, no seais ingenuos, y a los hechos me remito. Javier de la Cueva


PD y no existen dos enciclopedias en castellano, sólo existe ésta, también me remito a los hechos.

Please translate in English?


To answer a few questions that have been raised by Edgar in his emails to me.


1. There are no plans for advertising of any kind in es.wikipedia.com, ever.


2. The community I refer to is you, the people of this wiki, who have broken away based on false assumptions.

I want you to have complete control over your community, as a part of the world community of wikipedia. This includes control

over the content, the policies (so long as they are consistent with freedom, GNU FDL, and the NPOV appropriate to an encyclopedia!).

I most especially want the participation of Edgar and Javier, who have spoken so eloquently here about their concerns.


3. I do not support the delection of comments anywhere at any time. I am firmly in the camp of open and honest dialogue between all parties at all times.


4. Javier says that he does not like me. That's a shame, because I like him very much. I like his dedication to the honesty of the project, and his efforts to make it better. We share all our ideas about the future of the project, save for one -- he feels that for various reasons, Spanish speakers must be unique and separate from the rest of the community. I can only hope to solve the problems he sees in order to bring everyone back together.


5. I am planning to answer anything else from above, except that I am unable to read it. I believe that Javier is raising some questions about whether the nonprofit organization is simply another way to make money. I do not know what he means. When a Spanish translation is provided, I will be able to answer in great detail.


I am greatly encouraged that Edgar is willing to work this all out, and end the separation of the two servers. I ask everyone to please do all that you can to maintain all

your work on es.wikipedia.com, so that the "fork" is kept to a bare minimum. We can all rest assured that peace will come, because we are not enemies, and the reasons

for this fork were all misunderstandings and miscommunications that can now be solved completely.

El hecho de que estemos aquí hablando ya me parece una muestra de buena voluntad por parte de todos, así que parto del presupuesto de que todo el mundo actúa de buena fe y con sinceridad. Estos días estoy escribiendo poco y leyendo mucho :(, he leído la idea de Stallman de una enciclopedia libre y universal en Internet, las licencias de GNU, todo lo que se ha escrito aquí, en barrapunto y en cualquier sitio en donde se hablaba de estos temas.


Y mi pregunta, con todo el respeto es: ¿cuál es el problema acerca de que estemos aquí o allí? Parece ser que la idea de Stallman era que las enciclopedias fueran naciendo y dispersándose por toda Internet y quizás fuera de ésta. Y después de reflexionar sobre ello creo que es lógico, natural y estratégico para el proyecto.


Así que mi propuesta sería no que nosotros nos reintegráramos a wikipedia sino más bien que wikipedia españa se reintegrara a nosotros (y esto lo digo con toda la humildad). Si esto es un proyecto libre y entre iguales ¿cuál es problema? Podemos seguir compartiendo metas, traduciendo de unas enciclopedias a otras y compartiendo y mejorando el software que soporta esta enciclopedia.


Esta es mi propuesta para acabar con la secesión. - Juanan

Sorry for my terrible English:

The fact we are here talking is a proof of good desires(?) from evereybody, then I start thinking all the people here is fair playing and truly. This days I have been writing less and reading more :(, I read about Richard Stallman's ideas about a free and universal Internet encyclopedia, GNU's licenses, all we are writing here, in barrapunto and each place they are talking about this themes.


And my answer, with all my respects is: which is the problem about we are here or there? It seems to be that Stallman´s ideas was that the encyclopedias were starting and spreading around Internet and probably out here too. Before thinking about this I believe is logical, natural and strategic for the project.


Then my proposal is not we returnig wikipedia, and wikipedia returning us instead (and I say this with humility). If this is a free project and between (iguales), which is the problem? We can continue sharing goals, translating from one encyclopedia to another and sharing and improving the software that supports this encyclopedia.


This is my proposal to end with the fork. - Juanan


Your English is not bad -- better than my Spanish!


The problem of "here or there" is merely one of world unity and consistency. When users find es.wikipedia.com empty, when all the other world encyclopedias are filling rapidly, they will not understand why. Additionally, an international group of programmers is working hard to support a consistent method of interlinking between different languages, for people who speak multiple languages -- this effort would be hindered by having separate servers for each language, and helped by having everything all together.


There is of course room in the world for different ideas of what an encylopedia should be, and there are also many possible kinds of content other than "encyclopedia" that can go under the free license.


But my concern is that through my own poor communication, we have a lot of misinformation here about commercial motives, about censorship, etc., that have led to a break which is not based in real differences of opinion, but in mere misunderstandings.


You are right, that if we continued separately, we could share articles, translating from one to another, and improving the software. But then, why go separate ways?


Many aspects of the software are immature at this point. As our project grows, we will introduce new ways of consistently storing the data, new types of tags for markup that are useful to end users. If the projects are separate, they will grow in different ways. This could be good, if we had some real disagreements. But why shouldn't users in all parts of the world benefit immediately from software innovations contributed by Spanish-speakers?


Notice that there is no "Spanish Linux" and "German Linux" and "English Linux", all developing in different and incompatible ways. That's because language is not a sufficient reason to go separate ways. This is even more true in Wikipedia, where we have a large group of people from many countries all working for the same goal.


Separation is not good, especially when done for reasons that are simply not true, for example for alleged commercialism, or for alleged censorship. If someone has deleted any user's comments inappropriately, that is wrong, and in violation of the spirit of wikipedia.





¿Del espíritu de Wikipedia?. Yo estoy con Javier... El espíritu de Wikipedia me interesa tan poco como el espíritu de cualquier otra ".com". Según el ideario, con el que coincido, no debe prevalecer lugar o tiempo de nacimiento, en este caso, ¿que pasaría con una enciclopedia española de 15.000 artículos y una inglesa de sólo 2.000?



Me parece que la propuesta de pasar a ".org" ya está hecha y es el único camino posible, no para nosotros, sino para wikipedia.com, es más, para el proyecto de una enciclopedia realmente libre (GNU) en internet.



Lo de los interlinks es de lo más divertido que he oido, siguiendo con la política "internacional" llevada hasta ahora por Bomis sería interesante ver el enlace español (¿debería decir traducción española?) de artículos como "Guerra de Cuba", "Política Exterior de los USA en hispanoamérica durante la Era Reagan", "Colonialismo militar, económico, social y cultural de los países anglosajones", "Guerras menores tras la World War II"...



Por si alguien quiere traducir el Quijote comenzamos:



Ladran, luego cabalgamos.</b>


Yagius


Bueno, pues parece que ultimamente todos hemos intercambiado ideas con Jimbo... Aqui os pongo mi carta y su respuesta para que juzgueis...


Gonis wrote: 

>       I have decided to send this mail because I want to believe that you would

> do any possible thing to get us back into the spanish wikipedia. It is a bit

> sad that this statement comes only after the move/fork/whatever is a fact,

> and when the most active collaborators have gone.



It is very sad to me too.  I'm most sad that no one approached me

about any of this before the fact!  One day, I got a message in my

inbox saying that the Spanish wikipedia had forked.  :-( I had no

idea.



> 1) There is a big concern that wikipedia might develop into a comercial

> schema as soon as it gets to a reasonable stage. We believe that we

> contribute to this kind of project because knowledge is not the property of

> somebody, but a gift to the whole humanity, and that it must be shared for

> free. The solution to this point is easy. Make a non-profit organisation,

> and give the control to that organisation. That will satisfy one of our

> concerns.



Done.



> 2) There is also the impresion that the non-english wikipedias are not

> listened in the same conditions as the english wikipedia. Modifications,

> improvements, etc... come always later in other languages wikipedias. And

> their ideas are probably not always considered. Again a solution to this

> point is easy. Have a representative from every wikipedia in the non-profit

> organisation. And have all representatives have equal conditions.



Right.  Well, the problem here is not one of respect, but of

communication, I think.  Magnus, who is the primary author of the new

software, is not a native English speaker.  There is no particular

reason why the English wikipedia should be favored.



The problem in the past has been that the International wikipedias are

much smaller, with smaller participation, and so of course they have

naturally not been as eager to get involved with the process.



But yes, a big part of what we need to do as we move forward is ensuring that

every wikipedia is represented!



> 3) In the past there has been nasty and rude attacts to some of the

> collaborators which are the basis of this project. This has been, in my

> impresions, a big push for many people to move away from wikipedia. You

> cannot expect people to contribute their time and effort to a project were

> you see some of the historical guys insulting somebody. A lack of diplomacy

> like this should be avoided by all means.



I agree completely.  But perhaps some specific examples would be

helpful to me?



> 4) Censorship: There is great concern on censorship in wikipedia. There are

> pages that were banned apparently, there are comments removed, etc...



This part is absolutely false!  There is *no* censorship.  Whoever is

telling you that there is, is lying.



> You can check in the spanish wikipedia that my name and those of

> some other collaborators who moved away and stated so have had their

> comments removed.  Why? Who did it?... We believe in no

> censorship. The comunity should be capable enough to control

> undesired comments, etc... And nobody should have granted superuser

> access. At least to remove other people writings.



There has been no censorship.  As you know, anyone can remove comments

from any page at any time.  This is the nature of wiki.  But no one

here, no one with any authority, has made any edits of any kind to

es.wikipedia.com.  We don't even speak Spanish, so we couldn't know where

to begin.



This is the accusation that I will fight the most strongly -- any

suggestion that I condone censorship of any form is untrue, and a

slander upon the project.



Freedom of speech is a major value to me.



> Because of this reasons I have proposed to continue working on the

> alternative "wikipedia" until a non-profit organisation with representation

> from all wikipedias is in place. After I suggested that es.wikipedia.org

> should be mirrored in the place where our alternative "wikipedia" is. I

> don't know what will be the suggestions from other people, but I must tell

> you that there is people already very ungry because of the removal of our

> comments in the spanish wikipedia, and there is people who has proposed to

> contribute equally to both wikipedias (that is copy every collaboration in

> both places).

>

> I hope I made myself clear, though my english is not very good (sorry for

> that and if something sound to strong to you, please think that might be

> because of my poor english).



No, this all sounds good.



Please tell everyone that there is NO censorship of es.wikipedia.com



Can you send me links to specific pages where you think your comments

were removed?  If I am mistaken, and if the pages have been removed,

then you can rest assured that it will be investigated immediately.  I

do not approve at all.



-----------------



Finally, please do not wait until the nonprofit organization is fully

formed before coming back.  It will take several months to do that,

and we need to heal this break *now*.  You should instead set a deadline

for me: September, let's say, and say that if the nonprofit is not fully

formed by then, you and the others will break away.



Why so long?



In the United States, the formation of a nonprofit organization

involves getting approval from the Internal Revenue Service, the IRS,

as well as getting documentation from a state government, as well as

state tax agencies.  This will take some time, and I'm already working

on it.  But nothing will be finalized this week or next week.  It may

be months, because the IRS in particular is very slow.



Instead, you have my personal word, published openly and publicly,

word which, if I were to break it, would justify all wikipedians

everywhere to revolt.



I can furnish you with personal references to friends who have known me for

years, and they will tell you that I always keep my word.



Finally, there has never been any reason to think ill of the project

on "commercialization" grounds.  Only a few people have spread lies

that I am planning to get rich off the contributors.  I wish that

people could be more kind and understanding -- I have spent $250,000

of my own money, and I do not own a house because of it.  This is my

gift to the world, and instead I am attacked for allegedly trying to

get rich from it.



This makes me sad.



--Jimbo


Despues de todo esto, de lo que he leido mas arriba, etc... me da la sensacion de que todos tenemos bastantes puntos en comun y algunos distintos... Normal! Creo que seria importante llegar a un consenso entre nosotros sobre exigencias a la wikipedia y tratar de hablar con una sola voz... A mi personalmente la idea de pasar a .org me gusta... lo de copiar los articulos en los dos sitios (aunque es un rollo) no me parece del todo mal. Y lo de que es.wikipedia.com sea un mirror de la enciclopedia sevillana me parece razonable. Respecto a lo de no necesitarles, bien es cierto que no hay necesidad fisica, pero no veo porque tenemos que vivir aislados del resto de esfuerzos similares. Eso, creo, es precisamente una de las cosas que criticamos en la wikipedia (que pasaban de nosotros, los polacos, etc..).


-- Gonis

El mensaje de Jimbo es: os venís *now* y luego yo cumplo.


Este mensaje no es serio.


Dado que los hechos no corresponden a sus palabras, yo digo lo contrario: cumple y ya veremos. Javier de la Cueva


PD. Por cierto, una fundación no garantiza nada de nada. La IRS se retrasa pero no tanto como dice Jimbo, en ocasiones en un mes y medio están constituidas.


Una vez constituida una fundación, os puedo contar mil maneras para hacer lo que ellos querían hacer con una .com.

Javier, please speak more explicitly. You keep hinting at some sinister or evil motive of the .com, but this is simply false. Our goal is the same as always: to create a

free encyclopedia, fully international in scope, and to make it available to every single person on the planet, including those without internet access. What else do you

think I want to accomplish, what sinister thing?


Speak up front and clearly, do not hint, because I want to make sure that everything we do is exposed to sunlight.


--Jimbo Wales


I want to answer to Yagius that is worried about "wikipedia spirit". What we call the "wikipedia spirit" is the idea that one has to be neutral to write an encyclopedia. When we write about the spanish-american war we must write it from a neutral point of view. That means that the article must represent, both the spanish and the american views. Thats the spirit of wikipedia: neutrality to political, national, ideological and religious views.


From the article about the spanish-american war at the english wikipedia you can read:


Spanish-American War is significant as it is considered the first war of U.S. imperialism where the United States justified war because it was good for business. In the words of Senator Thurston of Nebraska: "War with Spain would increase the business and earnings of every American railroad, it would increase the output of every American factory, it would stimulate every branch of industry and domestic commerce."


see:

http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Spanish-American_War


This is not a pro-american imperialist article.


Joao (a wikipedian)


Quero responder ao Yagius que está preocupado com o "espirito da wikipedia". Aquilo a que chamamos "wikipedia spirit" é a ideia de que quem escreve uma enciclopédia tem que ser neutro. Isso significa que cada artigo tem que representar, tanto o ponto de vista espanhol como o americano. Esse é que é o espirito da wikipedia: neutralidade em relação a pontos de vista nacionais, ideologicos e politicos.



Do artigo sobre a guerra espanho-americana na wikipedia inglesa pode ler-se:


A guerra espanho-americana é significativa porque é considerada a primeira guerra imperialista levada a cabo pelos Estados Unidos que foi justificada por ser boa para os negócios. Segundo as palavras do Senador Thurston do Nebraska: "A guerra com espanha aumentaria os ganhos de todos os caminhos de ferro americanos, aumentaria os ganhos das fábricas, estimularia o comércio e a industria"


ver:

http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Spanish-American_War


Joao, um wikipediano

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